Mixed hierarchy

[Somewherre]

Hi all -

I currently have 2 dogs (Sadie, 4yo treeing walker coonhound, spayed, ~50#, & Doc, 1.5yo mixed breed medium/small ~30-40#, intact male), and am considering getting a 3rd dog. I've had both since puppies, and while they are minimally obedience trained, they for the most part get along great and both have wonderful personalities. The "most part" bit is that they've had a few scuffles, I think primarily over food and my attentions.

In considering how well or not a new pooch will fit in, I've been trying to determine which of them is the more dominant, and I've come to the conclusion that I can't tell. They both exhibit both dominant and submissive behavior.

Just now, for example, Doc started posturing toward Sadie by stiff-leggedly bumping up sideways against her, she gave a mild annoyed growl, he put his butt in the air and tried to get her to play by mouthing her leg, then rolled over to give her his belly when she ignored him. He frequently rolls over to both of us (yes, I always take a moment for a quick belly rub). Doc will also give her mouth licks and after a few tries, leave her be when she doesn't want to play (she wants to play maybe 40% of the time, but never for as long as he does). So it seems Sadie is higher up. But then he noses in and she goes away when I give her attention, seems to give her warning glares (no teeth or hair standing up) when I'm petting him and she comes near, she won't come on the bed if he's already there, etc.

Sadie's is admittedly a very wussy and passive-aggressive dog...very easily cowed by me and Doc, but I think that she may be the one who's started the fights they've had even tho she doesn't fight back and shakes like a leaf afterwards. I originally got Doc to give her someone to play with as our previous dog had died and I couldn't keep up with her, but sometimes I think she just turned into a crotchety old lady when I brought him home. From the start, he was fearless and I think drove her bonkers with all his unbridled puppy energy. When I let them out into the yard to meet, he immediately ran circles around her, barking like a happy fool, while she just stood there whipping her head around to watch him, and looking completely aghast.

Anyhow, I'd love any insight on the pack order of these guys. From what I've been reading, it would be useful to know in trying to get them both obedience trained and help with introducing a 3rd dog.

Thanks!

-Michelle (sorry it's such a long 1st post!)

[Orrymain]

I'm not sure there is always a dominant dog. My two dogs go back and forth with it. My lab was here first, but she had lived for a year elsewhere. When I got her, I had another older dog. Before that older dog died, I got a puppy. She is one year younger than the lab. I have watched these two, and they are now my only two, and they truly go back and forth with the 'I'm the boss' thing. I used to try and treat the lab as the alpha dog, but it was pointless. Now I let them figure it out, and they are just fine. I've never had a situation where neither dog is 100% the queen of the castle. It might be because of the older dog that was here first. He was the 3rd of a trio of dogs I had for 12 to 15 years. The two 'above' him had died in the months before him. I can say that when the lab arrived, she watched him like a hawk and learned a ton of behavior from him, so she had to feel secondary to him. Maybe because of that she doesn't totally act alpha? The older dog died not all that long after the puppy arrived. He was a great dog; my buddy dog. He was just old and really grieving for the two that had passed previously. Anyway, that's why I don't think there are always dominant dogs.

[kernow]

What you describe sounds fairly normal, they get along and know how far to push each other but just occasionally the female dog makes a point when the male dog pushes her too far. It sounds as if they get on just fine. I would think hard about adding a third dog, three is a lot more work than two and if as you say your present dogs are minimally obedience trained three may prove to be a handful.

[Bill]

This pack hierachy is really overblown. It has very little importance in most home packs. Sounds to me also like they are doing fine. It's normal for an older dog to put up with a lot from a puppy but will put the puppy in its place when necessary. I wouldn't be too concerned with their behavior. Forget the hierachy thing and just be a family. Each dog will show dominant traits in different situations.

[JacquelnnV]

Hey its the same with my Border Collie/Kelpie/Hound Cross and my German Shepherd but the pack leader is you or it should be there is a dvd called Establishing Pack structure with the family Pet from leerburg.com which is very useful and works great. just thought you should know and they also have a free ebook on introducing a new dog into a house with others dogs which is also helpful

[RubyRoo]

It has now been scientifically proven that the so called 'pack structure' in the pet dog does not exist, and that dogs are not always on the look out to become pack leader over the other dogs or the owner. Unfortunately some so called trainers still think along these lines, and then employ the 'dominance' theory to it, which can cause all manner of problems, where none existed before.
Dogs will push themselves forward for something depending on how much they want it, which is why some people say they can't make out who is in charge. It just depends if one dog is say more food orientated or another more toy, or affection. Dogs will usually take a lot from puppies, precisely because they are puppies. However as the puppy grows, then they may become less tolerating with the adolescent dog. It sounds as though your dogs are pretty normal to me, so don't make a problem by worrying about something when there is probably nothing to worry about.